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Earlier today, a pal of mine started a discussion on this backwoods little message-board we frequent.  It was an olive-branch, of sorts, intended to heal perceived wounds between the more religious members of the board and the more vocal of the atheists/agnostics.  Being one of the latter, I felt the need to express myself, as I often do (on the Internet at least), and the result turned out to be a reasonably coherent expression of my views, as opposed to my normal snarky babbling.  I share it here, alongside the quotes that inspired parts of it, mostly because it's a chance for this blog to actually be personal for a change, and also to invite any discussion it might inspire.

Zero, I hear what you're saying. Shit, those could be words straight out of my mouth, a couple of years back.

Zero101 wrote: Despite being extremely agnostic (or maybe because of it), I do think we "bash" religion WAY too much on this board. It doesn't help that Oge is constantly beating the religion drum, but everyone immediately jumps all over him and makes him out to be the posterboy for people of faith... when we both know there are idiots on both side of the fence and it is unfair to point at them as shining examples of any group of people. We have perfectly sane and enjoyable "religious" people on this board and I worry that they may not feel as welcome to post here because of the strong anti-religion sentiment here.

I certainly don't want to many anyone feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. I don't view Oge as a "typical" Christian any more than I'd view myself as "typical" atheist. "Typical" people typically aren't. I know and love many people with strong religious beliefs, including most of my family, and that love and respect isn't diminished in the least by their faith. It doesn't mean I can't think they are wrong, the same as I think a lot of people are wrong about a lot of things.

The concept that I have a problem with is the taboo against talking about religion like we would talk about anything else... as if it is, no pun intended, holy ground upon which we must not tread. For example: If you want to believe that the Earth is flat, you are more than welcome to. I'm not going to call you an idiot outright, but I'm going to disagree with you, and provide supporting evidence to my case. If you can show me compelling evidence that the Earth really is flat, after all (which you can't, cause it isn't, but hypothetically), I'm all for hearing it, and will take that into consideration.

You can't say something is true just because you "feel" it is true.... at least not if you know anything about how the human brain works. The mind is constantly making patterns out of chaos... We may see a creepy face for a moment in a TV full of static... but I doubt any of us believes it is a demon or a ghost. If you've been raised from childhood to believe that demons live in your TV, and that's been reinforced by every authority figure in your life as a child, you might feel differently (even if you're afraid to admit it and possibly look foolish).

Zero101 wrote: So, from that perspective, everyone who is adamant about there not being a god or that religion is a waste of time is just as kooky as the people who try and shove religion down your throat. Nobody has all the answers, so we could all benefit from just keeping an open mind.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any atheist, anywhere, who would say to you "There absolutely is no higher power or anything that could be described as God". There's always a possibility, of anything, even if it is extremely unlikely.

What I WILL commit to is that The Bible (and all religious texts in history, as well) was written by man, and that the God described in those or any other pages does not exist as described. I don't believe this just because a pastor touched me, or because I didn't like Sunday school, or because I'm a cantankerous old goat with a crusty old empty heart (plenty of Atheist stereotypes to go along with those Christian/Muslim/Jewish ones). I believe this because of overwhelming evidence that it is true, and ZERO evidence to the contrary.

The moment anyone is willing to share ANY evidence of god, gods or God, I'm all ears, and I will consider it the same as I consider anything else. Until then, I plan to do what little I can to prevent misguided, superstitious people from affecting my life any more than necessary. At the same time, to try and help others that share my feelings get out from under the fear and repression inherent in their religious upbringings, and realize the world (and the people in it) are generally pretty awesome.



EDIT: Also, I LOVE how atheists get lumped in with "hard-core bible thumpers" as equally asshole-ish.  Somehow I'm guessing you haven't seen a lot of atheists at hate rallies, or holding "Science Hates Christians" at funerals, or throwing bricks at people outside of a Right to Life clinic (if that's something that exists? Sorry, my metaphors broke)

Comments

[Dunny]

it's kind of depressing to see just how much pains has been circulating around that little board...

i'm also very envious of how you manage to find the words i can't - you come out sincere, i come out bitter.

i might have to hire you as my speech writer.

[Zero]

Who are you calling backwater?

[kersy]

I think the problem with religious discussions on the net and why they offend people like Brady, and also why oge is so infuriating, is that we're never talking on the same level. I'm also agnostic like zero, but when I discuss religion I'm talking about logic, foregoing my "personal feelings" because I admit they are not based in logic whatsoever but on improvable emotions and impressions. Brady and Oge do not separate these two tho, so it becomes a personal affront to them.

I once had a discussion with Oge about gay marriage and anthropology. When he informed me that marriage was defined in the garden of eden that LITERALLY happened 6 thousand years ago, I was like "... oh fuck this." And never debated him again. Not on the same plain of logic whatsoever.

[Sollus]

I'm with you on:

"The concept that I have a problem with is the taboo against talking about religion like we would talk about anything else... as if it is, no pun intended, holy ground upon which we must not tread."

As much as I wish this weren't the case, it just isn't and I'm not sure if it will ever change. Every type of religious discussion that I've ever been a part of, whether it be on the internet or in real life, has always devolved into an anger fest or at least one person getting pissed off. I've even been the person to get pissed off before. The saying of "East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet" goes hand in hand with belief and logic. They will never meet.

I totally agree with Dunny here too, you word this stuff in a way that makes me envious.

[Aaron Welsher]

"The saying of 'East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet' goes hand in hand with belief and logic."

I would agree with you, to a point, if you replaced "belief" with "faith." If you do that, it is almost true by definition. If it was considered true by everyone, there'd be no reason for anger at all. What causes problems is when people interpret their personal faith in things as some sort of logical argument or fact.

To take one example: If a person says to me "I have faith that the Biblical creation story is true, despite factual evidence to the contrary," then I have no problem with that whatsoever. To each his own. But if you are going to argue against the facts natural selection and evolution because "the Bible says so, and I believe it" and expect that to be a legitimate, logical argument, you are quite mistaken, and I'm going to call you on it. It isn't logic, it is faith... call it what it is and be happy.

[Sollus]

Yeah I should have said faith instead of belief. Regardless, it's a murky situation.

[cash advance loan]

Author of "Losing Faith in Faith:" "I have something to say to the religionist who feels atheists never say anything positive: You are an intelligent human being. Your life is valuable for its own sake. You are not second-class in the universe, deriving meaning and purpose from some other mind. You are not inherently evil -- you are inherently human, possessing the positive rational potential to help make this a world of morality, peace and joy. Trust yourself."

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